Phil Fersht [00:48]
Good evening to you, Ganesh, good to see you.
Ganesh Ayyar [00:48]
Good morning. Nicer to see you in person, but we’ll do this anyway, right?
Phil Fersht [01:18]
So, I’d love to hear a bit more about your background. Maybe you could share with our audience where you came up from and what you did in college, and was being a senior leader in services what you always wanted to be?
Ganesh Ayyar [01:35]
Yeah, so, I’m a small-village boy. I actually did my entire schooling in Hindi medium, and I remember my cousins who could speak English, and I couldn’t. And then I went on to do a Bachelor of Commerce, became a chartered accountant. Throughout this journey of formal education, I never imagined that I would be part of the tech BPO industry, because the industry itself was very small, very elite. And through a series of accidents, I joined what I rate as one of the best companies which grooms people, the company where you can learn a lot, Hewlett-Packard, and I stayed with them for 20 years. I’m a big, big fan of the HP Way. Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard’s way of creating a company and people has been kind of my biggest learning experience. So after two decades, I moved to be the CEO of Mphasis, had the privilege of working with the finest set of individuals, took the company from what was almost a captive to making it into a commercial entity, and Blackstone acquired the majority stake, and then I left. I joined Cognizant in 2019, 2.5 years ago. So literally you could say I have worked for three companies in almost 35 years in the industry.
Phil Fersht [03:17]
Wow, there you go. In this day and age, that is something to behold, right? And that’s what’s happening in the market today. So who have been your major influences along the way, as you look at those who’ve molded your career, shaped your thinking?
Ganesh Ayyar [03:17]
So, you know, as a kid, when you grow up, many times you look at your family members. So one of those influencers was my dad, his work ethic. He was actually an engineering professor. There were days when I’d go to bed and he would be working, and when I woke up, he’s still working, and I used to wonder, does he sleep at all? So work-ethic-wise, he’s definitely a role model for me. Bill Hewlett, Dave Packard, their philosophy, their HP Way — a big, big influence. I’ve never met them. I wish I’d had the opportunity of meeting them, but sometimes in your life you feel that you know this person, you have met this person. I read all the books because the influence was huge. Then, if I can quote two more people, one is Lee Kuan Yew, the founding Prime Minister of Singapore. Something amazing — 600 square kilometers without anything, he took this city and made it into a global city, a powerhouse punching above its weight. His conviction, his directness — sometimes it’s scary, but very, very effective. Then, the father of the nation of India — I’ve always wondered how he took nonviolence as a means to gain freedom. So these are people who have influence, but every day we have an experiential journey. You watch a kid, how they learn, how quickly they learn — that’s something I would like to have even at this age, to quickly learn. So many people influenced me, and it’s probably the most enjoyable part of one’s career because you observe, you learn, you unlearn. So these are some of the people, if I may.
Phil Fersht [05:39]
Yeah, well, the Singapore story is quite amazing, because I think in, was it ’63, Malaysia was offered the chance to take Singapore in and become part of Malaysia, and then Malaysia refused, I think, and then it all started from there to become Singapore — at one point the world’s richest nation per capita. So it was an incredible story if anyone has some time to read up about it, and I had the privilege of spending some time there myself. So it’s good to hear. So what took you into the Cognizant hot seat in operations, and what are the sweet spots of this business? Because I would refer to the area you’re in as one of the best-kept secrets of Cognizant, in a weird way, because it’s not out there as the front of the company, but it’s been a big piece of its growth, and its performance in the last couple of years has been exceptional. So what is the sweet spot that’s going on in your operations team, and where do you see this going?
Ganesh Ayyar [06:41]
Yeah, so, why I joined Cognizant is fairly straightforward — Brian Humphries. After leaving Mphasis, I took a break, and then I was thinking what to do. I was thinking of running as another small-company CEO. I know Brian from his HP days. I get a call, I fly to New York, and from first call to contract, it was done in two weeks. And I have a funny story, because I met the then HR officer of Cognizant. He looked at my resume, and then he said, “Ganesh, do you know you’re not coming here as a CEO?” So I said, “Oh my God, is it? Am I in the wrong room, wrong meeting?” and I got up. So that’s the journey. When I joined digital operations, some of my friends called me up and said, “Ganesh, what does this mean, digital operations?” So I said, “It’s BPO.” They said, “Why are you joining the BPO business? Isn’t it dying?” And boy, when I joined Cognizant, I saw the work that had been done there. Nothing short of amazing, magical, because the story on born-digital clients is unbelievable. Arguably, we are the leaders in born-digital clients. The kind of work that we do is inspiring. Gen Z would love it, and I feel like a teenager whenever I look at the kind of work we are doing. Our DNA is industry-vertical BPO. So that differentiates us. Last but not least, in the last three years, we have had an amazing automation story going. We use automation internally and we provide automation services externally. So not just the growth, but the qualitative aspect of moving to cognitive automation, leveraging AI and data — it’s all so interesting. So I feel like a kid in a toy shop. Very, very interesting business.
Phil Fersht [09:01]
Yeah, it’s very interesting hearing about the automation story that you’ve built, because we are in a serious situation with talent. This is the first time our industry has seen demand outstrip supply. It’s incredible. And this is a three-, four-, five-year thing happening right now. I don’t believe this is a blip or a short-term issue. So the ability to be able to automate your own services to deliver to your clients must surely be extremely impactful. But as you look at this whole landscape we’re in, what do you think are the biggest challenges in this market to grow your business in lockstep with the tech services business? Because that’s been doing very well — I think there were some very strong results announced yesterday — but what are your challenges to keep growing in tandem with the mothership?
Ganesh Ayyar [09:56]
So, to be honest, sometimes the challenge is we ourselves, as leaders or as people, because the world of process is changing so fast. New things which we never thought of. How does an autonomous car learn and become smarter? Is that tech or process? When a drone flies and identifies a certain thing and wants to learn whether it’s a bird’s nest or something else, is it tech or process? So there are so many new avenues opening up. The opportunity ahead is huge, but for that, the mindset change that is required and creating the talent pool is probably something which we need to do. And to me, that can be a constraint, but actually it’s more like an opportunity if you really look at it. I don’t see any major issues. You spoke about the great resignation era. Actually, the concept of automation — if you can call it a digital worker and a human worker — the ability of human workers to create digital workers is exciting for them. So it’s not actually a threat. If you are going to make every human worker have the ability, the learning, the expertise to create digital workers, they would stay, because they get inspired. The quality of work improves, they move up the value chain, they are able to see things differently instead of just doing manual work. They are able to bring cognitive elements into it. So automation is not necessarily, if I may, to plug the gap that the great resignation is creating, but it is actually to prevent the great resignation from taking shape wholly, because people want to learn new things, they want to be energized with it, and of course they want to see their value going up. So that’s kind of my view on both topics.
Phil Fersht [12:17]
OK. Well, it’s got to be a major factor when we look at the fact that we’re two years into a pandemic — hopefully not much longer — but companies have hired people who’ve already left the company during this period of time. It doesn’t really matter anymore if you’re a contractor or a full-time employee. The whole concept of where you work is changing. People are saying, “Oh, I changed jobs and I went from one management-issued HP laptop to another one, and the brand changed,” and all this. But what is ultimately going to keep your talent in your company? What is it that you think is going to win out here in terms of keeping the best and the brightest within your team?
Ganesh Ayyar [13:07]
Actually, the concept of why people stay — the framework probably hasn’t changed. The underlying elements may have changed. People stay, and they’re saying, “Invest in me,” one. Second, they are saying, “Challenge me.” And third, they are saying, “Value me.” So if you really analyze — are we investing in people so that they get challenged in a new environment? And this is where our leadership in, let’s say, born-digital, automation, industry-vertical, channeled well, will give them an opportunity to participate in the growth momentum that the market is seeing, and along with the growth momentum, they will grow. Valuing will automatically happen, because as you move up the value chain, the whole hygiene factor kicks in. The challenge lies in the fact of how do you bridge it during this time of change. And if we are able to bridge it well, we have an opportunity not only to retain but to even attract more talent, younger talent, and make them more valuable. So while the great resignation is an industry-wide challenge, partially caused by COVID because people just got tired — it’s hitting them time and again — the industry does have an opportunity to turn it around and make it much more valuable for the company in terms of employees, by focusing on those three elements that I spoke about. And if you have a story where you are winning in the new marketplace, that adds to the excitement.
Phil Fersht [15:00]
Yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it? I mean, have you seen anything like this before, Ganesh? You’ve come through your three decades-plus in this industry. I know in the millennium time we had some challenges retaining talent, but is this the biggest crunch you’ve seen?
Ganesh Ayyar [15:21]
This is the biggest, but similar, smaller things had happened during the dot-com era. I was with HP, and we saw a huge migration to Sun Microsystems with the introduction of Java. And everybody was rushing towards the similar companies, and the traditional companies were losing talent big time. And then the wave came back. So in smaller ways, I have seen it before, but nothing of this magnitude, this size. It’s like a tsunami that we are witnessing to some extent, but I’m actually quite optimistic that things will start settling down. As the COVID situation starts to come under control, you will see the three principles which I was mentioning becoming more important, and things will start settling down. But the onus is on businesses like ours. The onus is to make sure that we are continuously evolving ourselves, moving up the value chain rather than getting stuck. We shouldn’t be afraid to somewhat cannibalize our own business and move up the value chain. And if we can keep doing that, I think there is an opportunity for us to surge ahead. And at least in the context of the business that I represent and the company that I work for, I know there is tremendous focus, and we need to keep dialing up. There is not a single moment when we can say, “OK, we’ve solved it, it’s over.” I don’t think so. It’s a continuous process.
Phil Fersht [17:03]
It’s interesting, isn’t it? And do you feel there’s a new culture emerging at Cognizant? There’s obviously been a lot of change in the business since Brian’s come in and brought in some new people, some new management, and some people have obviously moved on as well. But there are a lot of people who’ve actually made CEO positions in other companies who’ve come out of Cognizant, which I think says a lot for Cognizant. But is there a big cultural change going on in the company?
Ganesh Ayyar [17:43]
No, I think external market change precipitated this change, and the arrival of Brian and the associated changes that you have seen has a strong linkage to the external changes that the market is seeing, and Cognizant’s desire to be again at the forefront of success — and hence we saw these changes. Obviously, losing good talent always hurts the company, but it also shows you something: that Cognizant is a place where talent thrives, and when they leave, they go and occupy big positions. And of course that means we have lost good talent, but the fact remains that Cognizant shaped this talent, and today they have occupied bigger positions outside. We will continue to do that. The newer talent that’s coming in — significant investment is going in to building that talent, and time will tell. If you look at the recent results that we announced, and you connect the dots, it’s clearly an aircraft which is taking off. So to that extent, I feel thrilled to be part of this family.
Phil Fersht [19:00]
Yeah. So I have one final question. We anoint you the king of processing services — BPO, whatever you want to call it, operations. You get one week and you have one wish, things you can change for the industry. What would that one wish look like? What would it be?
Ganesh Ayyar [19:22]
You know, Phil, this whole work-from-home and what’s happening in the world — not just BPO, this entire services industry — has the biggest opportunity to make a huge difference in things like diversity and inclusion, and even going beyond, in the space of ESG and all that. There’s tremendous opportunity ahead of us, and the more we double down, the greater would be the value that we would be creating for our stakeholders. So it’s not about whether I’ll be a king for a week or not. The question is, what am I doing in my current position to accelerate that? And this is the question which Cognizant is completely focused on. Even in my role, I’m leading one of the areas where we are looking at people with disabilities — how can they be brought into the mainstream of this industry? And that’s something which I’m working with the team to figure out. Tremendous opportunity ahead. So it’s not just about creating market cap and revenue growth — this industry has the biggest opportunity to make a difference, and that’s what I would step up to, not as a king, but as a soldier, to make a difference.
Phil Fersht [20:28]
Well, that’s a great answer. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this conversation and look forward to continuing it, hopefully back in person again later in the year, Ganesh.
Ganesh Ayyar [21:05]
Thank you so much, Phil. The pleasure is mine.
